Reaching the Outcast and Belonging to a Church

welcome back to Everyday disciples, the show

where we strive to follow Jesus wherever we are. I'm Pastor

Matthew, and I'm so glad you're with us today. We've got a

special guest who's joining us today. In our very first

segment, Rod auto, a retired pastor from our congregation

sits down with Lori and I, to talk about reaching the

outcasts, Rob spent much of his ministry focused on ministering

to those who might have gotten some side eyes from the good old

church people. And we want to learn from what he has to say.

In part two, we talked with Pastor Rob about a growing

question in the church these days. Why be a member of a

church? It seems like an old fashioned idea these days to

formally join a church. But there's some real value to

making that kind of a connection with a local church. Buckle up

for some great conversations today on everyday disciples.

Well, welcome to another segment of everyday disciples, and I'm

joined with a special guest today. I've got Laurie here with

me, Laurie, when Nikki and Laura, you brought a special

guest with us. You want to tell us a little bit about who's here

with us and what we're gonna talk about today? Yes, I'm very

excited. Pastor Rodney Atul has agreed to join us today. And our

women's Bible study this past session, went through two of the

Gospels and we just had really great discussion around the

story of the woman at the well. And we talked a lot about how we

could be more like Jesus, how, you know, there's different

people at church that I mean, we've all probably felt like

outcasts at one point or another. But you know, how you

feel like outcasts, how people at church feel that they have to

look a certain way, or come a certain way on Sunday, and how

we could be more like Jesus and meet people where they at where

they are at. And I thought of Pastor Atul, his wife shared

some great ways of

different ways that you were Jesus for people in I guess,

their their tough, difficult times, and how you weren't

afraid to meet them where they were at.

Even if that would maybe look poorly, for last lack of a

better word on you from maybe certain church folk. So we're

thankful that you're here. Yeah. Great to have. Mr. Otto is a

retired pastor in the area and I know you're, I don't know, are

you officially a part of like every church around here, I know

you've kind of bounced around, pretty much.

So church left to me. We love it. I love it when you know,

look out and see out there on on a Sunday morning. And I love

having you around here. But and we go quite a ways back to.

We've known each other for quite a while. So it's great to have

you on here today. Good to talk about this. So our kids were

always excited when he would come and preach. I've heard that

from other people, too. It's the pastor that's on fire. That's

what they would say so and a pastor who I think for a lot of

your ministry, you've had a heart for the outcast goes way

back to my mom. Well, tell us about that. Well, Mom was, you

know, grew up on a farm in Iowa and mom was a Sunday school

teacher, catechism teachers. Pastor leaned on her when there

was no one else to lean on. And we would go to church and there

are farmhands hired hands who don't have money, don't usually

member for church and have a bunch of kids. And Mom always

went up the long driveway to, to bring them and they, they they

were different, but they were part of the community. Sure.

That's great that that was instilled that long time ago,

long time. And you've held on to that all this little kid looking

out the window and said, What are we doing here?

So what do you feel? So from all your years of being a pastor?

What is there certain that kept kind of tugging you different?

Just I mean, especially in the Lutheran church, right? And we

kind of talked about that, you know, I know our kids went to

Christian schools and everything as well. So was there something

just tugging you to kind of seek out

people that might not fit the typical LCMS Sunday mold of what

you should be both Phyllis and I were very fortunate having

pastors who saw the world, they didn't see little, really, in

people everywhere. And both of us at sixth grade had a

missionary come to VBS and talk to us about Africa. So that was

our first love. We wanted to learn about Africa. And then as

a high schooler, I saw the movie Spartacus, I don't know if you

know that movie, but

black man dies for the for the Caucasian guy, those gladiators

and I said I want to be like not Spartacus, but the black guy

you know that's more Jesus life you could die for the cause. And

I think that kind of set the tone. So that continued that you

know, you know

Uh, you know, you go through this unethical, wonderful

training system and you're always looking for mission

somewhere talent telling you about a new person and I was

placed as an orderly at the seminary across the hall from

Jakarta of India. So we made it to India a couple of times, and

were able to see poverty that you can't imagine here in the

United States. And we spent nine trips to Guatemala among the

garbage dump people there that we called fourth world, but that

they were happy. They were much happier than we were really.

They're very, that's taught us a lot. And suddenly there was a

propensity for reaching out to people different from us. I

guess that's it. So when I go back to the story of the woman

the wall, I mean, I feel like there's so many different points

of why yes, I just love that story. So much you have right

the woman the outcasts, going at noon, full of shame, kind of the

ethnic half breed. And then you have Jesus who I mean, divinely,

no, she's going to be there, seeks her out, loves her. And I

just was thinking from like a church standpoint, we had such

great discussion on that as well, in our women's Bible

segment kind of focused on that, that whole story for the whole

the whole time, which was nice. But what are some social,

economic racial barriers that you've seen? So who is the woman

at the well today? Is that what you're? Yeah, and how could we,

I mean, we all technically are the women at the wall I think

just people don't see themselves as the woman at the well I think

is which is a struggle for church myself as well. Growing

up Lutheran my whole life, I think, I love how God's use the

prodigal son parable to help me realize

I'm the prodigal son. So I just didn't know what others will

know, stuck in West Michigan, I find it at Meijer or targeted or

there, when you walk in, you engage with all kinds of people

from all over the world. And I don't go in there without any

time enjoying someone quite different from me and quite

different from my experience. And, and, you know, it's the

it's my hyperactivity that I'm in people's faces, socially.

And, you know, that's, you know, for most people, that's a

difficulty for me, that's joy and delight. And, you know, just

yesterday, Richard, he's the greeter at Meijer here in

cascade, or wherever you might be. There's all kinds of, I

mean, this is a new age. I don't I don't have to travel to

Africa, like a little boy wanted to. I'm in the midst of a world

population and we're all one because we're human. And because

of Christ, we you guys preach it. You go across the room.

Yeah. But even you know, his name is Richard. Oh, which I

think but a lot of people I mean, walk by you know, you

know, his name is Richard that's what I'm saying. You've always

had this Jesus like quality to to love and know people for who

they are. Yes, Jesus, like, but it's a pain.

hurts, it hurts other people. Phyllis gets mad at me all the

time. Because stop it. They they've got to do their job. You

know. But it's funny, though, that you mentioned that because

because I think I've heard people I've lived like on the

west side of Michigan my whole life.

And I've heard folks who have moved from other even just other

parts of Michigan to the west side. And I've said like,

there's definitely a culture over here. And I don't know

where it comes from, of like, we like to keep everybody at a

distance, right? You know, we everybody likes their space.

We're not like superduper outgoing, it's not like the

South. You know, we're you never meet a stranger down there. We

in this corner of the world, we are a little bit more reserved

and withdrawn. And so it can be hard. For somebody like me, like

I have to really push myself to try to be like Rob, or rod to

share, or to get to know somebody's name like that. That

can be and that's not important. It's not that it's just in your

own personality. You do it your own way. But in your heart,

you're reaching across the aisle, you're you're seeing

someone as a human being not as somebody who looks different or

acts different or is different or has more money or less money

or more education or less education you see people in

Christ so to speak, and see them as Christ sees them. I feel like

Pastor sermon yesterday was talking about you know, those

the fears sometimes you know, what fears do you hold on to

instead of living in the resurrected Christ and I loved I

hope it's okay. Phyllis had shared some stories when you

were a pastor and she used to worry at times because you you

would meet the alcoholic at the bar. Yeah, you would meet the

people where they were at. And I love that. And I as a pastor was

that a struggle did pastors

I don't know Are other people right?

Never made it in the, in the hierarchy of the church, you

know, self destruct because I was hanging out more with not

prepared for a sermon, not ready to do something because I spent

too long with people. So you have to have boundaries. But I

think there's a lot of pastors who

would feel maybe a little uncomfortable about, about

hanging out with somebody at the bar to minister to them. Yeah,

we would give him different gifts, right? Sure. Yeah. But

But I mean, I think that's a huge,

that's a huge step for for, for somebody, you know, for a pastor

or a Christian, to maybe, especially, you know, in former

generations, to step into a bar, to meet someone where they are

to talk to them. I think I'm putting myself in the place of

the person at the bar that you're coming to talk to. I

think that that breaks down some of those barriers that I might

have, because you're willing to step into my space. And that I

think is huge. Yes, I meet me where you're at. And and when

she was telling that story. It made me think of the woman at

the well, too, right. So Jesus came to me, he wasn't like, Hey,

know, Benton Harbor is I do and I had to make hospital calls and

St. Joe, or is there a Mercy Hospital? No, there isn't a

hospital, there isn't a hospital, and I'm not sure if

it's still there, there were there were a couple of different

house anyway, I would always drive I was in Brisbane.

And I'd always drive into Benton Harbor, get out on the street

and start knocking on doors just to have a feel. Because when we

started our ministry, we were supposed to go to India and the

visas closed. And I know I didn't get over there because

I'd cause too much trouble here. It's not. So I know why God sent

her Bofur there. And he reached out to high class Hindus like no

one else had and found many of them believe in Jesus. Glory be

you know, he found he got past that barrier. And he was able to

do that, because he had boundaries. And he was well

grounded and get through. Some of us are just flying around,

you know, and, and maybe are an example for others. But don't

follow this example. Follow your own with your own personality,

your own life, and reach somehow someone that Christ puts before

you. And don't be afraid he'll take care of you. So what are

some?

For those who are listening here? What are some ways that

you would encourage them to take those steps? So you said don't

be afraid to reach out to those people that that so somebody

who's listening who feels like, you know, there's there's maybe

somebody that God's putting in front of me, or what can they

do?

Pray?

See, that person is Jesus.

I don't know just love the two things that, you know, Christ

said love God and love your neighbor. And if you love your

neighbor,

it's an action word. It's a it's a powerful force that the world

needs more than ever before. So just love, just love somebody.

Do you feel like the church body as a whole could do a better job

of always thinking? Yeah, yeah, no, I know, those ways because I

feel like that's on you know, I know a lot of kids that are

struggling with their sexuality and struggling with those areas

as well and

don't feel feel comfortable in church and don't feel you know,

feel that we hold that maybe as a higher a higher sin than than

we do some of our other sins of pride or greed or gossip and

coveting and all those kinds of things. Any thoughts of somebody

who from years ago was probably trailblazing.

Although I know you will just look at yourself that way. Just

each day, do what comes before you, you know, Bridgman, a

lesbians, I guess you would call them in the neighborhood, almost

homeless. And they walked in one day and we we celebrated

Christ together, we wholly invited them to our, to our

church, and we became friends. And I don't know that it made

any difference in their life except,

you know,

Christ was there, I guess. You know, that's the thing that

counts and and he's there with everyone lepers. Look at the New

Testament. He he kind of some people it's not quite right. But

they say that Jesus had a preference for the poor he

didn't but but he sure hung out with him.

You know, people who were ostracized and there's plenty of

those people today and Jesus asked us not to be part of that

group that separates people but unite people unites people

beyond the bounds beyond the the search systems, what's that word

says, schism, thank you, schisms that divide us.

There's all kinds of feels like the last couple of years,

there's been just so much more dividing. And maybe that's just

in the media and, as well, and

Christians online, political, I mean, you're right, along all

sorts of different fault lines of politics and lifestyle and

economics. I mean, like, there's just so many ways that we can

divide ourselves and, and let ourselves be divided, where I

love what I hear you saying, have looked for ways to bring

that back together and be a gospel person, instead of a law

person, you won't be a Pharisee you know that I know this is

right and wrong, and you're wrong. Think of yourself as a

senator and the other person is, Senator, that God loves just as

much as you that kind of thing. I think that's the drive that my

mom taught me a long, long time ago, Pastor Phyllis and I were

blessed to have wonderful pastors growing up, and they

were not close minded people who, who caused more divisions

in the community in the church and the world. They they brought

people together, recognizing their boundaries and their

differences. Yeah, when we were doing our women's Bible study, I

mean, everybody always knows John 316. You know, that's

always a quota. But then, we just talked a lot about followed

by John 317. You know, everybody kind of, you know, Jesus came to

save not because it can damn, you know, and for us, that just

was kind of that, that what you're saying to, you know, how

often there are times you need law, there are times I

definitely need law, but how often more people just need to

hear the gospel message, the law in the Gospel appropriately at

the rightly distinguished as we Lutheran, so my noodley tell

many books on that. Yeah. And that's a good thing. I mean, we

you can misuse the law, and you can misuse the gospel. And

that's hard. So would you just kind of wrapping up with just a

little bit, but would you kind of encourage people to go out,

get to know their community more? I know, for us personally,

you know, we go to a Lutheran church, our kids go to a

Christian school or, you know, our, I mean, it's almost like an

intentional we have to, how would you? How do you encourage

you would I don't know how to pronounce this. I'm sorry, my

Sikh friends. Gugu, Daraa Wawa, I can't remember exactly what it

was right up cascade road here. They have an open meal every

Sunday, why? I preached a sermon here at this church 10 years

ago, about the seats up the street, and I haven't been there

since the visit. Oh, yeah, they're, they're wonderful,

receptive people. They want to reach out, but they feel quite

isolated. All the cars drive by. So that's close by but the other

direction downtown. I like to go fishing. But I usually don't

catch fish. So I get tired and go under the bridge, right on

Bridge Street. And wherever it is there the interstate. I meet

Domingo in Tennessee, Paul, and all kinds of people. And don't

be afraid to go up and join them. I just went up and, and I

had some sandwiches. And we sang and I got a sermon preached to

me by a couple of the homeless people. Some of the most

insightful words of Scripture and messages that they're every

word, they're people. And boy, do they love Jesus for the most

part, just like us. It's amazing how that human connection is

fun. And I know my wife says I have no fears. But it's pretty

safe in Grand Rapids under that bridge. I've not had a moment of

being attacked, or, or abused or whatever. They're lovely people.

And they know how to live together in close circumstances.

So they're not afraid for you to come and say hi in their face,

they will not reject you, unless many are mentally ill and so

forth. So you have to be careful how you how you approach them,

with your prejudices and your inability to relate to them.

Yeah, it's really hard and fourth,

Healing, I have to say, it's fun. And it's exciting. And you

come back to a place like St. Matthew and cascade and you say,

We're all the same, which is I think what often times we

forget.

You don't get those same experiences St. in centers, we

call it don't weigh the two sides of our insights, you know,

we're, we're not so hot ourselves.

Mostly we like to think

everybody else.

Especially if you get called by God, and you think you're sent

by God, and pretty soon you have this divine nature to you that

gets in the way.

But every once in a while, you get brought down and you become

very human. Oh, one more thing. We went to Guatemala nine times

in the fourth world. But there are people with us that said,

Wait a second, there are rich people here that and we planted

to a wealthy church, besides the garbage dump church. So we don't

want to depict the poor as the only one with needs, you know,

yeah, you know, there's great needs above all human beings.

And after all, we're all going to be in heaven. So why not have

a church that's as colorful as heaven is going to be? It's a

great joy when that happens, but not very possible on this earth,

because we like to be birds of a feather flock. And that's love

to that's not bad. It's just both and kind of thing. Yeah.

And that is a good, we were talking about that earlier that

everyone feels outcast at some point in their life. I mean,

wherever went up, you know, so I think there's, we talked about

that, right, like, being single in a church, which isn't

something that a lot of people think about, but the loneliness

is very hard, something, you know, all those different

things, depending on on the particular church community that

you're a part of, I mean, you can, there's all sorts of things

that we would think of as that's, that's nothing at all.

But it could make you feel like an outcast, depending on the

individual situation you're in. I know, dealing with a lot of

the teens and families here too, you know, they're blessed

financially, but teens are struggling with being gone every

weekend for soccer games, and football games and extra

conditioning, and all those other things too. And so lots of

different people mental health and hurting in so many different

ways chips falling apart. I've never felt comfortable in

church, I have kind of a mental illness thing, you know, I'm

hyperactivity and, and I never fit in and I was felt I was an

outsider, you know, that was just part of life. And I think

that's a human thing. You know, we, we have that crack within us

that is broken with God, and therefore we're broken with

other people. And we feel like we don't belong when, when we

really do fit in quite well with the love of Christ. Yes. Why

thank you for being here. Because the reason I thought of

you was all the things you just said. And when we had all the

different guests, pastors for all the different Here's yours

here. There was just something different about you. Yeah. Well,

thanks. Thanks, Rod, for being here with us today. Thanks,

Laurie, for bringing rod in here. And it's been great to

talk with you.

Welcome back to another segment of everyday disciples, and I'm

joined today with Pastor Rob appel. And today we're talking

about why be a member of a church. I know we're getting

close to new members Sunday here at St. Matthew, we got a new

batch of people joining the church, which is always super

exciting.

But I know in this day and age, there's a lot of folks kind of

asking the question of like, Why should I be a member of a

church? Like? What does that mean? So maybe, maybe for our

conversation today, we'll talk a little bit about like, what does

it mean, to be a member? I'm not sure that we necessarily,

in our culture today have a good grasp of what that means. And

why why would we want to do that? So when somebody asks you,

like, you know, why, why should I join a church? What do you say

to them? I did want to say,

only reasons not to so get information. I mean, to get

information, you can get information, many other places,

right? I mean, Google, you could get all the information you

want. So while now I hope you get growth in God's Word,

through the church, but that's not really the reason it's to

live out love. Hmm, what do you mean by that? It's, it's the

people that God is putting right in your path to live out a life

of love. And that you're brought into I mean, the by the

scripture would say you're part of the body. So as a member of

the body, you're here to serve other people.

But I think behind all of that is God made us as people who

reflect His image to love other people. And a congregation is

that opportunity to give, but also to get in. I mean, we get

something from

being a part of the church to we get his word, we get his

sacrament, that personalization of His mercy and grace to us.

But we're also put in a context where we're going to be able to

give to the betterment of other people as well. And, you know,

some of the, let us portions of the Bible, you know, let us

encourage, let us pray for let us confess our sins to one

another, all those are, you know, plural there, let's do

this together. Sure.

And so that need for us to be in connection and in community with

other people and an honest, heartfelt community that happens

that I know it can happen in other places, but it happens

specifically and proactively in the church.

And I think that's a really different picture than, like,

our culture, as a whole has about like church membership and

our relationship, a person's relationship to the church that

they go to. I think a lot of people have sort of a,

almost, I was like crass to call it a transactional relationship,

but kind of like, my kids like going there. So we'll, we'll go

there, or I'll go there. And then when the you know, if the

pastor changes one day, then I'll go somewhere else, because

I don't like the new person. So, you know, I just go wherever,

wherever I like. And as long as I like it. And that's all I need

to go there for now. I hope you like it, and I hope kids like

it. But that's not quite the whole equation.

Because that can be very selfish. Oh, yeah, it isn't

result fish being in a in a community, called something from

me, calls for me to be a part of the larger picture. We don't

have membership.

In our culture, the way that we used to like, where you can be a

member of like a

Oh, like a savings club, sort of a thing? Oh, you know, I'm a

member of a website or something like that, where I get something

I've signed up, so now I get the discount or whatever.

But like, like a member at Costco, there's a benefit for me

to go there.

cheap gas, right, but, or large quantities? Well, you give you

give them your money. Right, right.

But like when I think about generations past, there's people

were members of other things you remember of, you know, like the

lodge or member of different organizations in the community,

like the rotary club or something like that. The PTA,

and all these sorts of different associations where people were

remembered, and it meant something to be a member of

one of those things, the moose, or the elk Lodge, or something

like that, we live in a very private, and by that I mean

individual, private, our identity were self identity,

self actualization, whereas generations before us, said, You

found your identity in being part of the whole.

And that can lead to,

I think, to the extreme, it's you lose sense of self and you

don't have you shouldn't feel, you know, you shouldn't own your

own feelings, and you shouldn't own your own decisions. Because

you're part of the whole, I get that. But you the pendulum can

swing totally in the other way, too. And somewhere, there's the

right, be your own individual self, but you're a part of a

bigger picture. And you're part of a bigger

movement, for sure. And you're a contributor to something that

maybe you won't even get a benefit from. Yeah, and you

know, I don't know the history on this as much I almost wonder

if

did membership in a lot of those other organizations? Did that

kind of come up? Because the kind of we almost always had

church membership? Right. I mean, you think back in the

ancient church, you had, you know, there was a process for

joining a group of believers, they, you know, the

catechumenate or whatever, coming up and being instructed

in the faith and joining and professing your faith

that usually got you I mean, in the earliest Christian that got

you into trouble. Right. Right. But there was a, you know, kind

of a membership process, right. Membership meant something there

that, you know, kind of a lot of these other organizations, I

feel like, you know, they've kind of

echoed that, well, now those things are all sort of going

away. And the church is once again, like, different from the

rest of culture, and we still have church members. And that's

an important thing, to be

a member of the body, a member of the family that we belong to

here, the local body, like, Yes, as a Christian, we're part of

the universal Christian Church, right? Cross denominational

lines, and all that sort of thing. But like, I'm also a part

of a local family. I'm a human that's, you know, connected to

every other human that exists on earth. But I'm also a, a member

of a specific family and specific name. And it's

important to be a part of that family. And there's also the

truth that with others, I can do things.

I can do things that I can't do alone, by being part of a larger

group, I can have a participate in something to a much bigger

degree.

And on the flip side of that, like, the the group has a say on

me, oh, well, that's the, you know, there is like

accountability that I get held to, and I have people by by

being a part of that church family. I'm, I am asking them to

hold me accountable. And asking them to speak into my life when

there's something that I don't see maybe that I need somebody

to call out.

I'm maybe not, not explicitly, but I am asking for that by

being a member of a church. And that's scary to some people. Oh,

that's very scary. Yes. And very difficult to be honest with you

to how does the church do that? Well,

with grace, yeah, absolutely.

But part of that is, when we hear God's word together, we are

being called out. In that respect, we are joining together

with our brothers and sisters and bowing down and saying, We

all need Jesus, and we're in this, we're in this together to

use a quite literal shaker. Yeah.

And God helped me as, as I help my, my brother in Christ here,

my sister in Christ. So now that can get overboard again, that,

you know, we're meddling in people's business and trying to

make sure that they're having fun, and they must be doing

something wrong, right, and getting very legalistic about

right, that's, that's, you know, the the error that you can run

into there. But yeah, being part of a, you belong, you are

accountable, and you're a contributor to your, you're a

giver, you're when we have a baptism, that's why it used to

be for COVID, let an older member hold this baby there,

their life speaks into that child, and that child speaks

into their life.

And we need to be reminded of that every once in a while. And,

and that that membership aspect

brings with it a little more permanency than just the I'm

here. While I like it, I am here while I can get something from

it, and as soon as I'm not getting something from it, then

I'm out of here.

It does bring with it a sense of like, this is my church, this is

my family through good times and bad times. And when there are

those bad times, rather than running away, maybe I need to

maybe I need to lean in a little bit and be part of you know,

trying to bring about change or, you know, resolution, whatever,

whatever it is that's going on, that's making it feel a little

bit off, if there's something that is that I feel like I'm not

getting from my church, maybe I need to speak up and be the one

to help offer that.

And step up to serve in a in a certain way, rather than just

running somewhere else where they're already doing it. And I

hope you know, our hearers are going to hear this in the right

way too. You can depend on me.

We could depend on each other. Yeah, if we as as

they others should be able to

count on me. I should be able to count on, you know, my brother

or my sister. Now, again, that can go overboard and that can be

used wrongly, but it can be a healthy thing to I know, you

know, somebody's got my back. And and we can accomplish, you

know, like a team. You can you can do something if everybody's

playing their role. And that's not to say that there aren't

some times where you know, a change is needed.

Some sometimes things just happen. You know, life goes a

different direction. And it's time

for a fresh start somewhere else, that that's okay too. I

would just as a pastor would just say, you know, try not to

be running from something

you know, but but to follow Jesus towards something. So you

know, maybe maybe, you know, Jesus is calling you from the

church that you're at now to, to a new church where you can take

something good that you learned, some or something that you were

able to do at the church that you're at now and bless another

congregation with that makes me think of when the church that I

was at before coming here to St. Matthew, and that church closed.

I can remember sitting in our final voters meeting with the

folks of that church who now are, their membership was going

to end because the church was closing. And, and more than one

person reiterating like we, we get to now bless a whole bunch

of other churches, because we've learned all sorts of good stuff

here. And now we get to take that somewhere else and be a

blessing wherever we go. And it was like, yes, yes, that's the

right attitude, we get to go crazy and blessing somewhere

else. And so that was, I remember being being very happy,

as even though was a sad time as as the church was closing.

To know that like, yeah, that we're going for the right

reasons. To bless somebody else that that's in that has

happened, that really has.

Yeah, the end to try to think pray through, what would it what

would be a godly reason

to stop being part of a church? I think, yes. If the church was

persistently teaching falsely, I don't think God would be honored

to stay in that you would be. I mean, you first want to try to

effect positive change. But I don't think God would want you

to stay in a situation like that. And I think geographically

when you're too far away, sure. Where you come each other

regularly, part of the length depend on you anymore, right?

There is that?

I think other times, it's really, it should be rare. But I

know there are times that I mean, relationships break down.

And it'd be nice to reconcile as God would have us. But sometimes

that doesn't happen, right? Sometimes that can be too

painful. Exactly.

So again, we live with grace with one another.

But we're, we're putting a family and we're made for that,

too. We're made for community we're made for it's not good for

the man to be alone. We do need other people in our lives, to

speak into us, to sharpen us to get an insight that we don't

have that I benefit from, that I get the chance to serve and help

and encourage somebody. Those are all things that bring out

godliness within me. Absolutely. Now, so sounds like being a

member of a church is pretty important thing. So glad that we

still get to do that. Glad that we still get to be members of a

church. And even though our culture

doesn't think of membership in the same way, I'm glad that we

still get to have that. So thanks for talking about this

pastor.

Thanks for listening to everyday disciples, everyday disciples as

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