In this episode, we sit down with Lori Wieneke, Spiritual Formation Director at St Matthew, and talk about how to handle disagreements as Christians. We’re in a world that’s more polarized than ever and sometimes we Christians don’t always handle those disagreements in a Christ-like way. Lori also recommended a resource that helped her: Love Your Enemies by Arthur C. Brooks.
In the second segment, we talk with Aiden Hunt and CJ Geluso about how faith and culture come together on Social Media as we seek to be followers of Jesus on those platforms.
And lastly, we have a quick tool to share for your Bible reading: The 7 Arrows of Bible Reading.
We’d love to hear from you! If you have a topic you’d like us to discuss, let us know at media@stmatthewgr.com.
Transcript
Welcome back to the second episode of everyday
Matthew Starner:disciples, where we explore what it means to be a follower of
Matthew Starner:Jesus wherever we are every day. I'm Matthew Starner, one of the
Matthew Starner:pastors at St. Matthew in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And I'm so
Matthew Starner:glad that you're with us today. Our first episode last week got
Matthew Starner:some good responses. And we're learning a little bit more each
Matthew Starner:week about how to keep fine tuning this so that we can make
Matthew Starner:it the best it can be to help you and all of our listeners
Matthew Starner:grow as everyday disciples. On today's episode, we sit down
Matthew Starner:with Lori Wieneke, our spiritual formation director, and get some
Matthew Starner:guidance on what to do when we disagree with other Christians.
Matthew Starner:Something I'm sure we encounter more and more of these days,
Matthew Starner:both in person and online. And speaking of online, our second
Matthew Starner:segment, we talked with Aiden Hunt, and CJ Geluso, from our
Matthew Starner:student ministries, about how culture and faith come together
Matthew Starner:on social media. And finally, we have a resource to recommend
Matthew Starner:that will help you as you read the Bible, whether it's by
Matthew Starner:yourself or with your family, or your group. We've got some great
Matthew Starner:stuff ahead. Let's dive in.
Matthew Starner:Well, welcome once again to everyday disciples, I'm Pastor
Matthew Starner:Matthew, and you might have noticed that we're in a time of
Matthew Starner:a lot of division in our world, and very polarization of topics
Matthew Starner:right now. Whether that's political stuff, ideologies of
Matthew Starner:all sorts of different kinds, you might find yourself up
Matthew Starner:against people that you used to be used to consider great
Matthew Starner:friends that now you realize there's these deep divisions on
Matthew Starner:things. And so today, I invited Lori Wieneke, our spiritual
Matthew Starner:formation director to sit down with us. Lori, I know that
Matthew Starner:you've got a number of close friendships, inside and outside
Matthew Starner:of the Church of with folks who fall on all sorts of different
Matthew Starner:places on all sorts of different spectrums, political, social,
Matthew Starner:cultural, whatever. And I wanted to kind of pick your brain a
Matthew Starner:little bit on how you handle being close friends with people
Matthew Starner:who, who disagree with you on on so many different things.
Lori Wieneke:Thanks, Pastor Matt, super happy to be here.
Lori Wieneke:And I am thankful to have a variety of friends with many
Lori Wieneke:different political beliefs, Christian beliefs. And I would
Lori Wieneke:like to talk about that a little bit today, when you asked me to
Lori Wieneke:talk about this, I kind of thought, Oh, I don't really want
Lori Wieneke:to say I'm an expert on this, because I have failed in many
Lori Wieneke:ways. And I can be happy to share that today too. But I kind
Lori Wieneke:of thought back to my childhood. And I think my my dad and my
Lori Wieneke:grandpa, although I don't think they realized it at the time,
Lori Wieneke:gave a really good example of how to disagree. Even What's the
Lori Wieneke:good word
Lori Wieneke:loudly at times, and still love each other. So growing up, my
Lori Wieneke:dad was one completely side. And my grandpa, my mom's completely
Lori Wieneke:different politically. And I remember my mom even saying
Lori Wieneke:sometimes, which I know people say today, which I actually
Lori Wieneke:disagree with, like, let's not talk politics, because I think
Lori Wieneke:it's important to talk about it with people that you love and
Lori Wieneke:people you have relationships with. But my dad and my grandpa,
Lori Wieneke:there were some Christmases, Thanksgiving, even Sunday
Lori Wieneke:dinners where things would get pretty heated. And I remember
Lori Wieneke:that as a child, like, what is happening, my dad's more of a
Lori Wieneke:competitive, wild person, but my grandpa was my grandpa, who I
Lori Wieneke:just loved and easy going. And so when his voice started to
Lori Wieneke:raise, or they started to really get in some pretty deep
Lori Wieneke:discussions, I remember as kids kind of asking, you know, what's
Lori Wieneke:going on, you knew something was up, you knew something was up.
Lori Wieneke:But where I feel like we are different now. And you mentioned
Lori Wieneke:the polarization. Those two men never talked to us kids never
Lori Wieneke:taught to badly about each other to anyone else. They discussed
Lori Wieneke:it, they discuss things, weren't afraid to, I guess really
Lori Wieneke:express their point. But at the end of the day, they never
Lori Wieneke:equated or judge or related that to their Christianity, which I
Lori Wieneke:think is happening today.
Matthew Starner:And that feels so foreign to hear it to hear
Matthew Starner:that like that they could they could disagree that loudly that
Matthew Starner:passionately about whatever the topic was, and yet still
Matthew Starner:respect.
Lori Wieneke:Yes, don't hug each other goodbye. We still
Lori Wieneke:worship together as a family. My parents, my mom's parents lived
Lori Wieneke:in town with us. My dad would sit next to my grandpa on Sunday
Lori Wieneke:morning worship. And they were both faithful Christian men who
Lori Wieneke:loved others love Jesus served. And I feel like that's
Lori Wieneke:different. Now I feel like Christians have become you can't
Lori Wieneke:possibly vote for Biden and be a Christian because you want to
Lori Wieneke:kill babies and you can't possibly vote for Trump and be a
Lori Wieneke:Christian, because you are racist and you don't love
Lori Wieneke:immigrants and that might seem extreme, but that is kind of I
Lori Wieneke:do feel like I'm happy. I'm hearing that more and more. That
Lori Wieneke:side doesn't love their neighbor like Jesus does. We're in the 19
Lori Wieneke:Add when these discussions were happening, at least in my
Lori Wieneke:family, I saw what it meant to disagree and kind of agree to
Lori Wieneke:disagree some time and still love each other, and still have
Lori Wieneke:a relationship and still be part of a family together. And I
Lori Wieneke:think those were my first like, looking back, I kind of they
Lori Wieneke:just modeled that.
Matthew Starner:What do you think changed there? Do you
Matthew Starner:think it was? Were the topics that they were disagreeing about
Matthew Starner:as polarizing back then in the 80s? Or is it? Is it that are
Matthew Starner:the things that we're arguing about? Are they more extreme
Matthew Starner:today? Or is it like we've, we've incorporated these
Matthew Starner:opinions into our faith in a way that maybe they maybe we've
Matthew Starner:tried to make them more of a central thing than they should
Matthew Starner:be?
Lori Wieneke:Yeah, I would, I would agree with that, I would
Lori Wieneke:actually agree with most of them. I'm not a political
Lori Wieneke:expert, by any means historian or anything like that. But when
Lori Wieneke:you look back, one of the books I absolutely love, which I
Lori Wieneke:highly recommend anyone listening, it's love your
Lori Wieneke:enemies by Arthur C. Brooks. And he talks a lot about I mean, we
Lori Wieneke:could talk about social media and the news, but and I feel
Lori Wieneke:like it's even that way today. But they're making both
Lori Wieneke:political parties seem so extreme and so different. When
Lori Wieneke:really I feel like instead of us focusing on all the things we
Lori Wieneke:disagree on, what are the things that we can talk about? What are
Lori Wieneke:the things that unify us, that we what are the things we agree
Lori Wieneke:on, I have two good friends who would say the other side is
Lori Wieneke:completely wrong, completely hurtful, doesn't love everybody.
Lori Wieneke:And they both serve at the same ministry downtown, which just
Lori Wieneke:kind of makes me you both, like, serve and give, dedicate your
Lori Wieneke:time, love others and love Jesus. And yet, you would view
Lori Wieneke:the other side so harshly. And that's that point, when I'm
Lori Wieneke:like, we need to start talking about this more. And what's
Lori Wieneke:happening, in my opinion, is a lot of people are blacking only
Lori Wieneke:listening to people with their own viewpoint. And that is never
Lori Wieneke:going to work well, not just political discussions. And I'm
Lori Wieneke:sure you've done with I've been with pastors or served in
Lori Wieneke:leadership positions to where if the leader only surrounds
Lori Wieneke:himself with people that think exactly like them, you are going
Lori Wieneke:to have a lot of problems because you are not going to
Lori Wieneke:grow. And that I think, is what's happening with
Lori Wieneke:Christians, non Christians. Were siloing ourselves, right?
Matthew Starner:Yeah, you start to start to build that echo
Matthew Starner:chamber around you, where you only hear the same thing. And,
Matthew Starner:and, you know, that that's, that's rarely ever a good thing,
Matthew Starner:right? Because Because we we grow and we're challenged a
Matthew Starner:little bit, and even when we when we encounter something that
Matthew Starner:we maybe disagree with, as Christians, I think, as we, as
Matthew Starner:we think through that in a Christ like way, as we, you
Matthew Starner:know, maybe pray over this this, you know, differing opinion sort
Matthew Starner:of thing. You know, God speaks to our heart, he speaks to us
Matthew Starner:through His Word. And I think that's a way that we can grow.
Matthew Starner:But we have to open ourselves up to consider those things.
Lori Wieneke:Which I don't think we're doing very well. And
Lori Wieneke:I think we're mistaking unity to mean agreement on everything.
Lori Wieneke:And I think that's kind of that you have to agree with
Lori Wieneke:everything that I believe in, or everything I stand for. And
Lori Wieneke:that's just not biblical, either. You think about I mean,
Lori Wieneke:I love the Avengers. So you know, I mean, how boring would
Lori Wieneke:the Avengers be if everyone was Captain American, and just a
Lori Wieneke:little bit different version of Captain America and you talk
Lori Wieneke:about the body of believers and how we're all different. And I
Lori Wieneke:know for me, my good true friends are the ones that hold
Lori Wieneke:me accountable, that are able to disagree with me that are able
Lori Wieneke:to give me a different side or a different take on that. And I'm
Lori Wieneke:thankful for that. I think you have to establish a relationship
Lori Wieneke:with people to do that. And I've seen too many Christians members
Lori Wieneke:that are church friends, just attacking people on social
Lori Wieneke:media, people they don't know. That just doesn't work. Well. I
Lori Wieneke:think in person conversations is a great way to start.
Matthew Starner:Right? I think maybe a good rule of thumb there
Matthew Starner:is the more what's the word I want to use? The more
Matthew Starner:controversial the more hot button a topic, the more you
Matthew Starner:need to have that conversation offline. Online. Because online
Matthew Starner:just it just it's so hard to do it. Because you're missing
Matthew Starner:something right? You're missing tone, you're missing like the
Matthew Starner:the body language of the conversation. It's so easy to
Matthew Starner:read into what somebody else has written even in a, you know, a
Matthew Starner:fairly benign comment or something on Facebook, but read
Matthew Starner:like sarcasm or snark or something into it and think that
Matthew Starner:they're there meaning something that they don't
Lori Wieneke:I do that all the time. Oh, totally. I do too.
Lori Wieneke:Yeah. And that's why you have to ask. In fact, I follow Toby.
Lori Wieneke:Mack on social media and that actually happened just a couple
Lori Wieneke:days ago. People want to check out his account, but it was
Lori Wieneke:regarding vaccinations at some of his events. And he posted the
Lori Wieneke:next day. The account that started the whole fight was a
Lori Wieneke:fake account. That was a fake account Me and 4500 Christians
Lori Wieneke:fought and bickered and argued with each other. And it was just
Lori Wieneke:again, that reminder of what good really comes out of online
Lori Wieneke:fighting and discussions. Call someone up, text them private
Lori Wieneke:message them, hey, help me learn, help me understand where
Lori Wieneke:you're coming from, because your words you're making people
Lori Wieneke:choose, I think it was in that book, Love your enemies. Think
Lori Wieneke:he said, I can't remember if his dad was a professor and his mom
Lori Wieneke:was an artist in Seattle, when somebody wrote all liberals are
Lori Wieneke:evil, and I'm trying to remember what the other word was. All all
Lori Wieneke:liberals are evil and stupid. And he said, hearing that that
Lori Wieneke:became that's his parents, you're talking. So even though
Lori Wieneke:he must had a different political view, now you're
Lori Wieneke:calling his parents stupid and evil, and now we're forcing
Lori Wieneke:people to choose people they love or their ideology? And that
Lori Wieneke:just that's never a choice that people should have to make, in
Lori Wieneke:my opinion? And how can you learn from people who who view
Lori Wieneke:things differently from you?
Matthew Starner:I think there's some really important things
Matthew Starner:that you just said there about, when we have those those
Matthew Starner:divisions to ask, like, teach me helped me understand. those are
Matthew Starner:those are incredibly defusing words to share with somebody
Matthew Starner:that they don't escalate the situation they help, they help
Matthew Starner:bring some understanding and and really can foster that unity.
Matthew Starner:Even though we don't agree on the same thing. We can still be
Matthew Starner:brothers and sisters in Christ together. It's so important, I
Matthew Starner:think for for the church to remember that, that that's what
Matthew Starner:unites us is Jesus, and the other stuff, how we live out our
Matthew Starner:faith in the world, it's gonna look different from person to
Matthew Starner:person, we're going to have slightly different spins on
Matthew Starner:things and, and understandings and applications of God's word
Matthew Starner:for our life. And that's where having that conversation face to
Matthew Starner:face, I think is just so important to help understand why
Matthew Starner:someone has come to the conclusion they did, and, you
Matthew Starner:know, maybe it'll help you understand why you're at the
Matthew Starner:place that you're at. Exactly. I know, just like theologically,
Matthew Starner:I've I've appreciated that. An issue a simple issue. That's not
Matthew Starner:simple, but a common issue in the church of like, what do we
Matthew Starner:believe about how the world came into being evolution or creation
Matthew Starner:kind of stuff. And so sometimes listening to people who believe
Matthew Starner:a different viewpoint than you, helps you understand where
Matthew Starner:they're at. But it also helps me understand, okay, this, but this
Matthew Starner:is why I believe what I believe I come away a little bit
Matthew Starner:clearer, even though I've gotten a broader understanding of
Matthew Starner:what's out there. And makes me kind of think about my position
Matthew Starner:a little bit and understand that I don't have all the answers
Matthew Starner:either.
Lori Wieneke:And maybe you did that for them as well. And those
Lori Wieneke:are the conversations and it's not something I'm really bad at
Lori Wieneke:it right now. And I'm really trying to like, actually listen,
Lori Wieneke:like kind of like, you're hungry for listening. I think I've
Lori Wieneke:heard people say that before, where you're actually listening,
Lori Wieneke:not automatically, just coming back with your point, because
Lori Wieneke:you're right, and then letting the Holy Spirit like, stir on
Lori Wieneke:you. I mean, that's literally happened to me. And it's not
Lori Wieneke:that I'm changing my belief in God's word, changing, you know,
Lori Wieneke:the core of who I am. But when you listen to other people, and
Lori Wieneke:really listen to where they're at, I don't think everything is
Lori Wieneke:so black and white. How we make things Christians or non
Lori Wieneke:Christians, I mean, if probably a lot of people listening today
Lori Wieneke:are Christians, but if you if your whole friend base is just
Lori Wieneke:Christians, and just people that look like you, and just people
Lori Wieneke:that vote like you and all that I try to get to know some other
Lori Wieneke:people. And I think you actually have to go to places where
Lori Wieneke:people do view things differently than you that that
Lori Wieneke:are different than you and I think what's happening is we're
Lori Wieneke:doing the opposite social dilemma on Netflix shows how
Lori Wieneke:social media and all that kind of helps you do that two, people
Lori Wieneke:are blacking you're defending people. And I'm not saying there
Lori Wieneke:are some people who are toxic. I'm not saying to put yourself
Lori Wieneke:in situations, if you're going to respond in an angry way
Lori Wieneke:probably step away for a little bit. But if we just keep
Lori Wieneke:blacking, and refusing to listen to anyone that's different than
Lori Wieneke:us. I mean, that's not even how our country was founded. And
Lori Wieneke:that's just not how things I just things just never go well.
Lori Wieneke:Another podcast I love which we're probably not supposed to
Lori Wieneke:advertise other podcasts, but Rise and Fall of Marcel's people
Lori Wieneke:if you have not listened to that I've listened to it twice. But
Lori Wieneke:listen to I think what I've gathered from that Leaders just
Lori Wieneke:surrounded themselves with people who never challenged
Lori Wieneke:them, who not just agreed with everything was afraid to
Lori Wieneke:disagree was afraid, and it just doesn't work out. It just
Lori Wieneke:doesn't work out. And that's, that's why I would challenge
Lori Wieneke:people here today to
Matthew Starner:absolutely yeah, that's never a healthy
Matthew Starner:place to be where, where everybody around you agrees with
Matthew Starner:you that just, that's usually a sign that something's wrong.
Matthew Starner:Yeah,
Lori Wieneke:out of fear out of you know, and I've had that with
Lori Wieneke:some friendships to where I was, okay, I really think I need to
Lori Wieneke:talk about this. But what's going to happen if seeing what's
Lori Wieneke:happened in other ways. But in most cases, my approach is, hey,
Lori Wieneke:I'd love to have lunch with you, I'd love to talk to you help me
Lori Wieneke:to understand help me to learn, I really respect especially in
Lori Wieneke:the Christian community, some of my friends who have been maybe
Lori Wieneke:more bold on other issues that not might not be, what's the
Lori Wieneke:word acceptable in the Christian circles, especially our kids go
Lori Wieneke:to Christian Schools as well. And help me to understand it, I
Lori Wieneke:love that you're not afraid to talk about that, and help me to
Lori Wieneke:understand and in all cases, except one, I've always had
Lori Wieneke:people willing to sit down and talk. And I think those are the
Lori Wieneke:those are the real people, you know, what we see online that's
Lori Wieneke:not your real, everyday people. And I think we have to remember
Lori Wieneke:that too. And as Christians Remember, we're at fault. We're
Lori Wieneke:not always right. And loving your neighbor, I think is a word
Lori Wieneke:that's being tossed around without people really I don't
Lori Wieneke:know they're using it kind of
Matthew Starner:both ways. Sure. Want to use it use it
Matthew Starner:almost as a weapon. And I don't know how could we use that that
Matthew Starner:that command of god those words of Jesus to love your neighbor
Matthew Starner:as a as a weapon against somebody that that just that
Matthew Starner:feels wrong? So maybe if that's if you find yourself in that in
Matthew Starner:that situation, maybe do a little bit of a heart check
Matthew Starner:there and see, am I am I using this maybe in a way that doesn't
Matthew Starner:actually reflect the spirit of what Jesus is telling us to do
Matthew Starner:there? Because I think loving your neighbor is exactly what
Matthew Starner:you're talking about doing is I'm not gonna sit down and and
Matthew Starner:argue with you debate with you to prove my case, so that I can
Matthew Starner:argue you across the line now to believe what I believe about
Matthew Starner:whatever the situation is, but to sit down and value them as a
Matthew Starner:person value their opinion, see and understand their viewpoints
Matthew Starner:and, and help them feel heard. I do remember coming across this
Matthew Starner:in a class a counseling class actually, but we talked about
Lori Wieneke:in terms of debating with someone which I
Lori Wieneke:don't think debating is all that helpful. But like, I don't
Lori Wieneke:remember who it was some some philosopher, his his first step
Lori Wieneke:to debating about someone is to be able to understand your
Lori Wieneke:opponent's position clear enough that you can explain it back to
Lori Wieneke:them in a in a satisfactory way. And it's like you you So to do
Lori Wieneke:that, like you really have to understand all the aspects of
Lori Wieneke:what the person who disagrees with you believes and thinks and
Lori Wieneke:to do that to put in that time and that effort. That's huge.
Lori Wieneke:And I think it shows that you value the other person Yeah.
Lori Wieneke:Yeah, because we can agree to disagree and I think that's the
Lori Wieneke:problem is right now there's this whole push that you can't
Lori Wieneke:like, Oh, don't disagree. Don't ruffle feathers. Don't discuss
Lori Wieneke:it. Don't did not just politically just with anything,
Lori Wieneke:when that's just not healthy. That's just not really what
Lori Wieneke:we're called to do. And I don't know I kind of challenge
Lori Wieneke:everybody to start not being afraid I'm not that you want a
Lori Wieneke:mean spirited arguments, not that you want hurtful comments,
Lori Wieneke:but it's okay to disagree. And and what can come from that?
Lori Wieneke:Well, as we wrap up our conversation here today, Lori,
Lori Wieneke:any any closing thoughts or concluding thoughts for us on
Lori Wieneke:this, this topic of division? For me concluding thoughts
Lori Wieneke:number one, try to get to know people who don't think, who
Lori Wieneke:don't act who don't go to your church who don't vote like you
Lori Wieneke:really try to get to know them. And that might be coming out of
Lori Wieneke:your comfort circle that might be really actually going to
Lori Wieneke:places that just feel different than you would normally go talk
Lori Wieneke:to people try to start forming those relationships or getting
Lori Wieneke:to know people. For me a big one and a big change that I've been
Lori Wieneke:trying to do is I heard Greg Frankie speak, Pastor for
Lori Wieneke:dwelling, dwelling 114 I just love him and a lot of what he
Lori Wieneke:says and it was a good reminder for me that I don't have to,
Lori Wieneke:it's not my job to redeem, restore people save people. Our
Lori Wieneke:job and our commands from Jesus was pretty simple to just love
Lori Wieneke:God and love others. And I feel as Christians sometimes we're
Lori Wieneke:trying to do things that are way above our pay grade. God was
Lori Wieneke:smart enough to send Jesus to do the saving to do the forgiving.
Lori Wieneke:So we just have to love God and love others. That doesn't mean
Lori Wieneke:again. I know
Lori Wieneke:But I think it's a reminder, no one is fixed yet. And if we
Lori Wieneke:truly if Lutherans, if we truly believe it's all about grace,
Lori Wieneke:that we are saved by grace, which is the whole reason I love
Lori Wieneke:being a Lutheran, there's not a grace, but right. Grace, if
Lori Wieneke:we're all saved by grace, and so I think that's just a good
Lori Wieneke:reminder for me to Yeah, I thank you for sharing that, Lori. And
Lori Wieneke:I think, you know, that that even makes you a really good
Lori Wieneke:person to talk about this, because you're in that struggle,
Lori Wieneke:just like all of us are, we all struggle with that. And if
Lori Wieneke:anybody thinks that they don't struggle with loving their
Lori Wieneke:neighbor, they maybe need to look a little bit closer pay a
Lori Wieneke:little closer attention to their life, because because I think we
Lori Wieneke:all at some at some level, we all struggle with our neighbors.
Lori Wieneke:And we got to remember, love your neighbor, love God. Keep
Lori Wieneke:Jesus keep the main thing, the main thing, and the other stuff
Lori Wieneke:will work itself out. And if you're not struggling with
Lori Wieneke:loving your neighbor, you're probably siloing yourself to
Lori Wieneke:everyone that looks like you. That would be my if you're
Lori Wieneke:getting along and totally agree with every single person around
Lori Wieneke:you. Go meet a new friend. Great advice. So thanks for sitting
Lori Wieneke:down with us. I really appreciate it and hope you've
Lori Wieneke:enjoyed this conversation to have us listen in, as we talked
Lori Wieneke:about Christians disagreeing with one another in a healthy
Lori Wieneke:way.
Matthew Starner:Welcome back. I'm Pastor Matthew Starner and
Matthew Starner:for another segment here of culture and faith today talking
Matthew Starner:about social media and I've got quite a crew gathered with me
Matthew Starner:today to talk about social media. First off, my name is CJ
Matthew Starner:juuso. I'm a volunteer here at St. Matthew, I help out with the
Matthew Starner:production the sound side. And with the youth group. My name is
Matthew Starner:Aiden Hunt and I work with the high school ministry here at St.
Matthew Starner:Matthew. And today we wanted to talk a little bit about how our
Matthew Starner:faith and culture intersect in the world of social media. So I
Matthew Starner:gathered you guys together, because I think you this is a
Matthew Starner:diverse group around here, we represent a couple different
Matthew Starner:generations, we represent different patterns and stuff
Matthew Starner:online. And so today we're going to just talk about how our faith
Matthew Starner:in social media comes together. With social media, it is a
Matthew Starner:it's a great tool, but one that can also specially as we've seen
Matthew Starner:in the last what several years, starts to be a bit of a divisive
Matthew Starner:thing, right? We can we can use it, or we can abuse it. And so
Matthew Starner:maybe just let's let's kind of kick it off going around the
Matthew Starner:circle here. What are some ways some good things that you've
Matthew Starner:seen come out of social media use.
CJ Geluso:Um, some of the good things I've seen come on to
CJ Geluso:social media is like a broader outreach of the church, the
CJ Geluso:church and kind of pastors and messages, God can use social
CJ Geluso:media in good ways. But we also see the retrospect of that kind
CJ Geluso:of the other side.
Aidan Hunt:I love the the connectivity we have through
Aidan Hunt:social media, like, for example, I live here in Grand Rapids,
Aidan Hunt:Michigan, and yet, because of social media, and because of
Aidan Hunt:technology, in general, I'm able to, you know, receive pictures
Aidan Hunt:of my niece and nephew in California on a daily basis, and
Aidan Hunt:I can listen to a soccer podcast hosted by two British guys who
Aidan Hunt:live in Germany. And then I can also like Venmo, my friend who
Aidan Hunt:lives in Virginia, and give him money and like a cup of coffee
Aidan Hunt:on me today, like that's incredible how connected we can
Aidan Hunt:be with people who are so far away. So that's, I think, a
Aidan Hunt:huge, huge benefit of technology.
Matthew Starner:The connectivity thing is huge. You
Matthew Starner:know, I've been able to connect with people who, even family
Matthew Starner:members that I've never actually met, I found some family members
Matthew Starner:who we did the, you know, messaging back and forth to
Matthew Starner:figure out how we were related. And that was super cool to make
Matthew Starner:those connections. And so yeah, it's it is a, it's a crazy tool
Matthew Starner:that Who would have thought like, especially, you know, we
Matthew Starner:think of the folks in the Bible times the tools that we have at
Matthew Starner:our disposal right now to share the faith. So you know, CJ
Matthew Starner:mentioned, the way churches use social media for like saints.
Matthew Starner:Matthew uses it for putting our services out there and we have
Matthew Starner:our Facebook page and
Aidan Hunt:This podcast was hard. Get Started in order to
Aidan Hunt:help Share tools and resources with with not just St. Matthew
Aidan Hunt:but with the whole church body, right Body of Christ in general.
Matthew Starner:And yeah, we have people who are connected to
Matthew Starner:St. Matthew, who don't even live around us, people who live in
Matthew Starner:other states, which is kind of amazing. I'm always humbled when
Matthew Starner:I, when I see those folks commenting on Facebook and
Matthew Starner:engaging and things, it's, it's amazing that people have have
Matthew Starner:connected with us in that way. So it's a it is a great tool.
Matthew Starner:But the other downside to that is it's full of people. And if
Matthew Starner:we know anything about people, people are sinners, all of us,
Matthew Starner:you know, around this table included. And when you get give
Matthew Starner:people a platform, and you give them an opportunity to share
Matthew Starner:their their deepest, most intimate thoughts and feelings
Matthew Starner:and opinions that in generations past would have maybe only been
Matthew Starner:shared between like a spouse relationship or real close
Matthew Starner:friendship when you can now put that out there for the public to
Matthew Starner:just see and engage with that, it seems like it creates an
Matthew Starner:opportunity for people to misuse that or turn it into a soapbox
Matthew Starner:right? I think we've all we've all seen that in recent years.
CJ Geluso:Yeah, and absolutely. Something I've also noticed is
CJ Geluso:that social media can be used as like an extension of yourself.
CJ Geluso:That's kind of how I see it. And so basically, how do I want the
CJ Geluso:world to see me the people interact with me on an everyday
CJ Geluso:basis know kind of who I am what's in my heart but on social
CJ Geluso:media, I can pour my portray myself however I want. So I
CJ Geluso:could almost kind of do like a false image of myself and act
CJ Geluso:like I'm this amazing guy on social media. But in retrospect,
CJ Geluso:you really don't get that that trueness. And I think that
CJ Geluso:brings on shame in some people's hearts a bit.
Aidan Hunt:One of the things I've noticed in I mean just my
Aidan Hunt:time as a, as a Christian and someone who whose generation Gen
Aidan Hunt:Z is so deeply impacted by social media there's a few
Aidan Hunt:things we can we can talk about because the Bible doesn't say
Aidan Hunt:anything directly about technology or social media. It's
Aidan Hunt:one of the many, you know, topics that we can't turn to you
Aidan Hunt:know, one of Paul's letters and be like this is how you should
Aidan Hunt:use social media as a Christian because they did not have any
Aidan Hunt:anything like this back then. But I think social media has a
Aidan Hunt:lot to do with you know, things that the Bible does talk about
Aidan Hunt:things like identity things like the words we use and the way
Aidan Hunt:that we speak about others the way that we view ourselves and
Aidan Hunt:the way we speak about about God and so I think when our
Aidan Hunt:generation I mean me and CJ are part of the same generation and
Aidan Hunt:Matthew and Adam you're I think part of the same one as well. I
Aidan Hunt:think our generations use them slightly differently but in ways
Aidan Hunt:that we're starting to see all of the impacts that they have
Aidan Hunt:especially on on in terms of identity I think identity is the
Aidan Hunt:big the big hitter when it comes to how social media is not only
Aidan Hunt:impacting us, but really shaping us and forming us as well. And I
Aidan Hunt:work with high schoolers and so social media is not only
Aidan Hunt:something that I have to know how to use well but it's
Aidan Hunt:something that I see the impact it has on on the people I work
Aidan Hunt:with and you know the the kids that I get to interact with and
Aidan Hunt:it's it's getting bleak it's getting scary how much first of
Aidan Hunt:all time we spend on social media I say we because I am a
Aidan Hunt:victim of it as well I mean we talked about our screen times
Aidan Hunt:today during Sunday school and I was not the lowest one in the
Aidan Hunt:room. Like she didn't wasn't either and it was like not close
Aidan Hunt:either. It was one of the worst some there was 110 hour are not
Aidan Hunt:gonna say who but 10 hours of your day spent on your phone.
Aidan Hunt:But yeah, I think we see social media the way that we portray
Aidan Hunt:ourselves the way that other people portray themselves and
Aidan Hunt:comparison is just something that comes naturally with social
Aidan Hunt:media especially in those formative ages teenage years
Aidan Hunt:young adult years you know in your 20s and your 30s you're
Aidan Hunt:constantly comparing yourself to people you know well like your
Aidan Hunt:friends and your family but you're also comparing yourself
Aidan Hunt:to people you you've never met before and you and you start to
Aidan Hunt:envy their life and covet what they have and what you don't and
Aidan Hunt:you know look at the way that they look versus the way that
Aidan Hunt:you look and self esteem impact can can come out of that and I
Aidan Hunt:think one of the things I've tried to kind of remind a lot of
Aidan Hunt:people is that social media as it tries to form and shape our
Aidan Hunt:identities our identity is still so rooted in Christ and rooted
Aidan Hunt:in the fact that we are made in the image of God and and that is
Aidan Hunt:who we are first foremost and always
Matthew Starner:right yeah it's it's so easy to tie up all of
Matthew Starner:your value all of your worth as an individual in how many likes
Matthew Starner:you get how many people are sharing yours to how viral you
Matthew Starner:get with a post that you have or whether or not your verified
Matthew Starner:accounts. Your verify verified in the eyes of Jesus. I mean to
Matthew Starner:sound a little bit trite, but you know, it's, that's not where
Matthew Starner:our identity comes from it. We got to we got to remember who we
Matthew Starner:are and who's We are and all of those social media platforms,
Matthew Starner:the ones we have today, and the ones that we can't even think
Matthew Starner:about that are coming in the future. They are, they're all
Matthew Starner:tools. And so I think as Christians, maybe one of the
Matthew Starner:things we want to think about is like, how do we how do we wisely
Matthew Starner:use this tool? It's, I remember when, when Facebook was first
Matthew Starner:taken off, and people were talking about like, what would
Matthew Starner:Jesus use Facebook? I think that's a silly question to ask.
Matthew Starner:You know, in part, it's a little bit like saying, would Jesus use
Matthew Starner:a hammer? You know, it's a tool? Sure, Jesus would probably use
Matthew Starner:Facebook, he'd use it better than any of us would, I think he
Matthew Starner:would, he would use it well. And so we want to think like, how
Matthew Starner:would Jesus use Facebook? What would he do differently than
Matthew Starner:maybe the rest of us? And then Facebook or whatever platform
Matthew Starner:we're on? How would Jesus use social media? You know, in a
Matthew Starner:Christ lightweight, how do we use it that way?
CJ Geluso:That brings on a whole series of questions. What
CJ Geluso:I mean, what he posts, his miracles, and the videos of his
CJ Geluso:miracles on Facebook, what he just posts scripture on
CJ Geluso:Facebook, what he when he talked about his disciples post selfies
CJ Geluso:with him and his disciples on Facebook, when
Aidan Hunt:he posts his quiet time in the morning, yeah, hang
Aidan Hunt:in with God. And it's like a picture of his open Bible and
Aidan Hunt:like a cup of coffee and like the so
Matthew Starner:would Jesus humblebrag? Is that what you're
Matthew Starner:saying? I
Aidan Hunt:have no idea.
Aidan Hunt:Like, yeah, yeah. Like you said, I feel like he would definitely
Aidan Hunt:use it much better than all of us. I don't think Jesus would be
Aidan Hunt:as addicted to social media as we are. That's for sure. Right?
Aidan Hunt:I think also, we can talk about the the, you know, chemical
Aidan Hunt:reactions that happen with social media. So like when
Aidan Hunt:social media users receive positive feedback, either likes
Aidan Hunt:or retweets, or reactions, or comments or anything like that,
Aidan Hunt:your brain fires off a dopamine receptor. Now we usually think
Aidan Hunt:of dopamine is like the pleasure hormone, that's not technically
Aidan Hunt:true, it's more like dopamine causes more wanting than it does
Aidan Hunt:liking or like pleasure. So therefore, increased dopamine is
Aidan Hunt:one of the factors in drug addiction, because, you know,
Aidan Hunt:drugs such as cocaine, amphetamines, stimulants, they
Aidan Hunt:increase dopamine levels in your brain. So the more of it that
Aidan Hunt:you have, the more you need for that same feeling. And the same,
Aidan Hunt:the same chemical that is fired off in your brain, when you use
Aidan Hunt:cocaine and drugs is the same one that goes off when you
Aidan Hunt:receive positive feedback on social media, it's jarring to
Aidan Hunt:say the least. So we're being, like I said, formed and shaped
Aidan Hunt:by the feedback we receive from social media and how it makes us
Aidan Hunt:feel. And so the more we use it, the more we need it, as well.
Aidan Hunt:And so when we think of the addictive qualities of social
Aidan Hunt:media, and how do we steward our social media, well, as followers
Aidan Hunt:of Jesus, I think it starts with understanding that you should
Aidan Hunt:probably set limits to how you how you use it, both in what you
Aidan Hunt:use it for, and how often you use it, how much time you spend
Aidan Hunt:with it, I think that's probably a good starting point, to kind
Aidan Hunt:of D shaping our lives from from the, from social media.
Matthew Starner:And that's something that I think it
Matthew Starner:everyone's gonna have to look at that for themselves, right? You
Matthew Starner:know, the, just like, when we talk about, you know, other
Matthew Starner:addictive things like alcohol, for some, what's the saying, you
Matthew Starner:know, for someone who struggles with alcohol, one drink is too
Matthew Starner:much, but 1000 is never enough, you know, kind of thing. You
Matthew Starner:know, if you, if you really struggle with addictive things,
Matthew Starner:if you have that addictive personality, you know, maybe you
Matthew Starner:really need to limit your time that you spend online. For
Matthew Starner:others who maybe don't have as big of an issue with that, you
Matthew Starner:know, maybe allow yourself a little bit more leeway with
Matthew Starner:that, but you're gonna have to prayerfully kind of make that
Matthew Starner:decision, what's a, what's a appropriate limit for you. And
Matthew Starner:as parents, you know, what's an appropriate limit for your child
Matthew Starner:at whatever age they happen to be at. And then, and then stick
Matthew Starner:to that as a parent.
CJ Geluso:I think Another good tip would be tried to portray
CJ Geluso:yourself in a real way, don't act like a perfect person on
CJ Geluso:social media. I don't, we're all broken, we're all sinners, and
CJ Geluso:we all need Christ. And I fear that that's when people start
CJ Geluso:getting the wrong image of who they are finding their self
CJ Geluso:image not and God is when they start comparing themselves to
CJ Geluso:other people. And we have to remember that these people are
CJ Geluso:only posting their good things typically, I mean, somebody is
CJ Geluso:not doing a Facebook status with a big picture on their worst day
CJ Geluso:ever. Typically, it's their day at the beach. And so even
CJ Geluso:sometimes those those pictures are edited and, and so we can,
CJ Geluso:we can find a lot of a lot of lies and that it is
Aidan Hunt:important to remember that social media is
Aidan Hunt:not an accurate portrayal of anybody's lives. So not only
Aidan Hunt:should you not pretend like your life is perfect on social media,
Aidan Hunt:I think it's important to remember that nobody else's is
Aidan Hunt:either and we can often get caught up in that we see
Aidan Hunt:everybody's lives and the things they're doing and the
Aidan Hunt:experiences they have and we can look at them because their life
Aidan Hunt:is so great and you know they're probably are really well. All
Aidan Hunt:things about their life, but they don't have a perfect one,
Aidan Hunt:there are things that are going on that you aren't going through
Aidan Hunt:and that you, you know, can't even imagine the same thing.
Aidan Hunt:Like we have wonderful things going on in our lives. But also,
Aidan Hunt:there are some things that we struggle with. And we don't want
Aidan Hunt:other people to have to, first of all, see those things. We
Aidan Hunt:also don't want those people to have to struggle with them as
Aidan Hunt:well.
Matthew Starner:Right? Yeah, you're seeing the highlight
Matthew Starner:reel. Yeah, from everybody's life, for the most part. One of
Matthew Starner:the other dangers, I think, of social media. As you as you gain
Matthew Starner:more, as you have that like community on there, you've got
Matthew Starner:followers, whatever the platform calls it, it can kind of lead
Matthew Starner:to, and this is a thought that I'm having for the first time.
Matthew Starner:So this isn't one that I've written down here before. So
Matthew Starner:just bear with me, but it leads to, I think, a false sense of
Matthew Starner:community in those settings, because you're, you're
Matthew Starner:interacting with people, but it's it's not a real
Matthew Starner:interactive, I don't want to say it that way. It is a real
Matthew Starner:interaction, but it's different from interacting one on one in
Matthew Starner:like a personal close, intimate way with another human being or
Matthew Starner:group of human beings. You want to you want to be careful with
Matthew Starner:that false community that you don't like, you know, get too
Matthew Starner:vulnerable on it, I guess, you know, there there, there should
Matthew Starner:be some healthy limits of things that we don't put out for the
Matthew Starner:world to see, it feels like it's maybe just my followers who
Matthew Starner:might see this. But when it's out there, it's out there, you
Matthew Starner:know, it's public, and we want to want to maintain those
Matthew Starner:healthy boundaries, I guess, is what I'm trying to say here.
Matthew Starner:Recognize that those are those numbers of the likes and
Matthew Starner:followers of their people. But it's a different relationship
Matthew Starner:than like, say, your small group at church, which everybody, we
Matthew Starner:want to encourage them to be in a small group at church where it
Matthew Starner:is that kind of close, kind of closed off personal connection
Matthew Starner:that you have ongoing connection that you have with people in
Matthew Starner:real life. That's not to say that you couldn't have some form
Matthew Starner:of that online. But maybe just being aware of this is out there
Matthew Starner:for the world. Be careful, the kinds of stuff that you put out
Matthew Starner:there. about yourself.
CJ Geluso:Yeah, cuz once it's out there, it's out there. You
CJ Geluso:know, it can be a very vulnerable place social media.
Matthew Starner:We've seen people, you know, celebrities
Matthew Starner:and high profile people get taken down by the stuff that
Matthew Starner:they post online and 10 1215 years ago, right? Yeah, I think
Matthew Starner:things from long in the past that can come back and haunt
Matthew Starner:you. I think one of the other things to maybe to think about
Matthew Starner:in terms of kind of going along with what CJ said a moment ago
Matthew Starner:of how you post online? And how would Jesus post online? I kind
Matthew Starner:of wonder, would Jesus post about himself a whole lot? I
Matthew Starner:kind of think he probably wouldn't post a ton about
Matthew Starner:himself. But maybe more about what God's doing the kingdom, he
Matthew Starner:would point to that sort of stuff. Maybe you know, we're,
Matthew Starner:we're guessing here because, because I don't know, I'm not
Matthew Starner:Jesus's Social Media Manager. his publicist, but
Aidan Hunt:can you imagine the job of being Jesus? Oh, boy. Oh,
Aidan Hunt:whoa, I
Matthew Starner:think I think maybe Peter wanted to do that,
Matthew Starner:you know, he was always kind of a spokesman for the group and
Matthew Starner:Jesus often was saying nobody calm down. But, but I think
Matthew Starner:that, you know, Jesus would maybe be posting a little bit
Matthew Starner:less about Hey, look at this thing that I did. And maybe more
Matthew Starner:about like, hey, look at what the kingdom is doing. Look what
Matthew Starner:God's doing look at what the people of God are doing. Now
Matthew Starner:certainly Jesus is a part of that and connected to that. And
Matthew Starner:you know, so maybe in our own lives, the stuff that we post,
Matthew Starner:maybe maybe trying to use it a little bit more for the kingdom
Matthew Starner:in terms of posting about what God's doing, rather than like we
Matthew Starner:joked about earlier the humblebrag kind of thing you
Matthew Starner:know the good thing that I just did what's what's God doing
Matthew Starner:point out those things I think those are are huge
Aidan Hunt:if we if we hold to really believing that everything
Aidan Hunt:we do should be done worship to God I think having that mindset
Aidan Hunt:of like before I post this on social media like is this
Aidan Hunt:glorifying God in some way? Does this point to him now maybe not
Aidan Hunt:directly like I'm not we're also not saying like should you throw
Aidan Hunt:your phone away and delete all those means that we're saying I
Aidan Hunt:mean, you can do that if that's what you feel like you're you're
Aidan Hunt:supposed to do but like you're allowed to post pictures of your
Aidan Hunt:grandkids on social media or like you and your boyfriend at
Aidan Hunt:you know whatever
Matthew Starner:like those are good things like delicious meal
Matthew Starner:yeah in front of you which is that
Aidan Hunt:concert you went to like do things you we are like
Aidan Hunt:you should share like highlight reels are okay because you want
Aidan Hunt:to tell people the good things of your life. But it's important
Aidan Hunt:for us remember like not all parts of our lives are good. And
Aidan Hunt:not everything in our life is going to be perfect and not
Aidan Hunt:everything everybody else's life is going to be perfect. But you
Aidan Hunt:have that mindset of it is me posting this done in detriment
Aidan Hunt:to myself and detriment other people's in detriment to the
Aidan Hunt:ship at the Lord or is it glorifying him? Is it showing,
Aidan Hunt:you know, the good things that he is providing me with is it
Aidan Hunt:You know this really good meal like we can thank God because
Aidan Hunt:good food is part of the design that God made a good food for a
Aidan Hunt:reason. So we can share that with people that's an okay thing
Aidan Hunt:to do,
Matthew Starner:right every verse or every verse every post
Matthew Starner:doesn't have to be a Bible verse right now. You know we can we
Matthew Starner:can be genuine we can post about ourselves and our life and But
Matthew Starner:yeah, I like that I'm doing it in a in a Christ like way that
Matthew Starner:honors people. Man, if if everybody did that second one
Matthew Starner:that you said, if that doesn't like hurt other people, the
Matthew Starner:internet would be just a tremendously different place
Matthew Starner:right now, right? Because there's so much of that tearing
Matthew Starner:each other down. And that's not what we should be about.
CJ Geluso:And social media is a spot to connect, you know,
CJ Geluso:connect with friends maybe that you've you've known and lost
CJ Geluso:touch with over time, or don't see much. So it's okay to post
CJ Geluso:about that new job that you got, but maybe instead of, you know,
CJ Geluso:I look at all this hard work that I did for my new job, maybe
CJ Geluso:Hey, you know, I put the work in, and God blessed me with a
CJ Geluso:with an opportunity. And so maybe just even changing the
CJ Geluso:thought process before posting?
Matthew Starner:Well, I think that's maybe a good place to
Matthew Starner:wrap this up that, you know, we didn't solve all the problems of
Matthew Starner:the social social media world. But you know, posting in a
Matthew Starner:Christ like way posting in a way that isn't, isn't going to tear
Matthew Starner:ourselves or others down. You know, things that are are
Matthew Starner:positive, not argumentative, I think those are, those are great
Matthew Starner:ways that we can represent Jesus in His Church, on our own social
Matthew Starner:media platforms. So thanks, guys, appreciate the the input
Matthew Starner:here and I look forward to doing this again, the next time we
Matthew Starner:talk about culture and faith together.
Matthew Starner:Hey, guys, Pastor Matthew here, with just one quick resource
Matthew Starner:that I wanted to leave you with today. As you're reading your
Matthew Starner:Bible, you might find yourself kind of wondering, you know, I
Matthew Starner:read the paragraph or I read the chapter, whatever portion I'm
Matthew Starner:reading, what do I do now? How do I dig into this a little bit
Matthew Starner:more. And I want to share with you this, it's really on our
Matthew Starner:website, it's a books, a bookmark that we've got. But
Matthew Starner:there's there's actually a whole book about this, but it's called
Matthew Starner:the seven arrows of Bible reading. And it's a simple
Matthew Starner:little tool that you can use, whether you're doing your
Matthew Starner:reading by yourself with your family, small group, whatever,
Matthew Starner:have a way to just sort of dig into the text a little bit. And
Matthew Starner:as you'd imagine, there's seven different arrows on this little
Matthew Starner:bookmark, that that each one prompts us to kind of ask a
Matthew Starner:different question about the text that we just read. What
Matthew Starner:does this passage say? What is this passage mean to its
Matthew Starner:original audience? What does it tell us about God? How does this
Matthew Starner:teach us about humanity? How does this change the way I
Matthew Starner:relate to people? How does it prompt me to pray and what does
Matthew Starner:it demand of me, it's a great way to just especially for those
Matthew Starner:passages of Scripture that maybe you've read a bunch of times and
Matthew Starner:you feel like you know it, to slow down, pause and reflect on
Matthew Starner:God's word and dig into that a little bit deeper, so we can
Matthew Starner:apply that to our lives. We're going to drop a link to this on
Matthew Starner:our website in the show notes. And but you can also just find
Matthew Starner:it by googling the the seven arrows of Bible reading. And I
Matthew Starner:hope this is a another useful tool for you as you are being a
Matthew Starner:disciple every day.
Matthew Starner:Thanks for listening in today on all these great conversations.
Matthew Starner:We'd love to hear from you as we continue this journey together.
Matthew Starner:If you could rate and review us on whatever platform you're
Matthew Starner:listening to us on that would help us out and help others find
Matthew Starner:us. And if there's a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us
Matthew Starner:know. You can email us at media at St. Matthew gr.com. Thanks
Matthew Starner:for listening and keep following Jesus together as we become